Minimum Income Guarantee Expert Group: November 2024

Attendees and apologies

Attendees

• Russell Gunson, Chair, Head of Programmes and Practice, The Robertson Trust
• Carmen Martinez, Coordinator, Scottish Women’s Budget Group
• Catherine Murphy, Executive Director, Engender
• Fiona Collie, Head of Public Affairs and Communications, Carers Scotland
• Gerard McCartney, Professor of Wellbeing Economy, University of Glasgow
• John Dickie, Director, Child Poverty Action Group
• Kimberly Wong, Policy and Research Officer, Coalition for Racial and Equality Rights
• Mubin Haq, Chief Executive, Abrdn Financial Fairness Trust  
• Peter Kelly, Director, Poverty Alliance
• Ruth Steele, Head of Social Security Futures, Scottish Government
• Sholen Macpherson, Policy and Research Officer, Coalition for Racial and Equality Rights
• Stephen Boyd, Director, Institute for Public Policy Research  Scotland
• Tressa Burke, Chief Executive, Glasgow Disability Alliance

Secretariat (Scottish Government)

• Caitlin Forsyth, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Manager
• Claire Johnson, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Support Officer
• Rebecca Darge, Head of Minimum Income Guarantee Secretariat
• Seona Carnegie, Minimum Income Guarantee Policy Manager

Observers

• Craig Macgregor, Deputy Programme Delivery Lead, Scottish Government (Facilitator) 
• Jane Watson, Product Owner, Scottish Government
• Talat Yaqoob, Director, The Collective

Apologies 

• Anna Ritchie Allan, Executive Director, Close the Gap
• Andy White, Glasgow Health and Social Care Partnership
• Ben Harrison, Work Foundation
• Chris Birt, Associate Director, Joseph Rowntree Foundation
• Emma Jackson, Head of Social Justice, Citizen’s Advice Scotland 
• Satwat Reham, Chief Executive, One Parent Families Scotland 
• Sharon Wright, Glasgow University

Items and actions

Welcome

The Chair welcomed all members to the meeting. 

Agenda item 1: overview and updates

The Chair talked through the updated timeline and procurements that was circulated to members ahead of the meeting via email. He gave an overview of the upcoming agenda items.

Agenda item 2: vision for a MIG

RG gave an overview of the vision for a MIG. He thanked members for completing the survey before the meeting, which allowed them to feedback on the vision and recommendations as currently drafted. He gave an insight into key themes arising from the survey feedback and the facilitated deep dives. He explained the changes that have already been made to the recommendations as a direct result of the feedback – largely around equalities and bringing recommendations on unpaid carers, disabled people and individual / household assessment into the nearer term steps.

The feedback on the vision:

• the early steps recommendations are too narrow in focus. They focus too much on child poverty and do not address other groups facing hardship
• a broader approach is needed – acknowledging that some people may be unable to work for long periods of their life, unpaid work and the role of carers and ensuring all individuals are supported
• the concept of a “guarantee” is currently introduced too early, and could undermine the vision as it won’t seem achievable in the short term
• there is a need to be clear about what level of minimum income is being promised and to frame this carefully from the start
• there is a concern on the lack of focus on services in the vision, particularly those that support marginalised groups
• the role of public services and formal/informal volunteering and community work should be strengthened, especially areas the Scottish Government has control over, to ensure a comprehensive approach to social security
• it is important to avoid tying the vision to independence and to maximise the use of current devolved powers

RG thanked members for their feedback and explained that the full report would build on the comments and that members would see these addressed when the full report is shared with them in due course. 

Agenda item 3: feedback on recommendations

RG introduced CMac as facilitator for the upcoming deep dives. 

CMac presented a high-level overview of the wider feedback on the recommendations as a whole. 

Overall the majority of recommendations were supported by attendees. He highlighted that there were eight recommendations that at least one person disagreed with. He outlined the deep dives would focus on: 

• the near term steps
• the balance between social security, services and employment
• devolution and political will and
• the proposal of a time-limited Minimum Income Guarantee

CMac confirmed members were content with the approach to the deep dives.

Agenda item 4: deep dive Session 1 – near term steps

CMac highlighted that feedback was largely around the first recommendation being too narrow as it focused specifically on children and did not read as if it is taking other groups into consideration such as unpaid carers, disabled people and BME groups. There was a concern that focusing on children might cause some of these other groups to fall even further behind as they already face additional barriers and high rates of poverty.

He proposed a redrafted recommendation to the group, that broadened out the first recommendation to encompass the priority families and protected characteristics - before opening it up for discussion:

• there was support for focusing on child poverty in the first steps as it aligns with the Scottish Government’s number one priority
• there was agreement on a broader approach that addresses intersectionality and marginalisation, while maintaining an immediate focus on children
• there was positive feedback about some of the language as it should be embedded across all policies and strategies
• recommendations should be clear and concise, particularly around addressing the key principles (who, what, when, where, why). Should be direct and actionable without getting caught up in unnecessary details

CMac agreed that the first recommendation should be redrafted broadening its focus whilst making it concise. Additional principles to accompany the recommendation should accompany as background. 

Action: Secretariat to redraft recommendation one based on the feedback, the updated wording will be added to the draft report that will be shared with members the following week.

Agenda item 5: deep dive session 2 – balance of recommendations

CMac explained to members that across the recommendations on services there appeared to be relatively strong levels of support, but comments would suggest that there might be gaps or additional detail needed. There were similar concerns raised around the work recommendations but given recent the UK Government announcements in the budget.
CMac proposed some suggestions to members before opening the conversation up for feedback.

Evidence shows people are not getting access to childcare so is not meeting the needs of people. Specific points included: 

• women, as a result, tend to work part time to undertake caring responsibilities
• childcare tends to only be available in traditional working hours, which BME families do not tend to work; larger families, traditional hours (which BME don’t currently tend to work)
• nursery places for additional support needs can be difficult
• attending appointments can be difficult
• there is at times a disconnect between Scottish Government childcare policies and how implementation is happening in practice
• the challenge of services for rural communities was discussed, they tend to be more affluent but poverty is rising faster
• there should be a review of services infrastructure – who is accessing what, who isn’t, and why
• retrofitting and other energy reducing measures should be brought in to the recommendations, ties to wider agendas such as Net Zero
• the recommendations need to be wider than disabled people and rural communities, for example lone parents and the precarity of work needs to be brought out
• Abrdn launched a report in September focusing on employment support and sanctions - would be useful to include those recommendations in the report
• there was an ask about the work on Universal Basic Services started by the Scottish Government. However, it was flagged that a letter had been previously shared with members that informed them this work had been stopped and folded into the work on MIG
• Social Security Scotland should be seen as a public service and it might be helpful to consider the role it could play in the future

CMac summarised feedback provided by members and confirmed secretariat will redraft aligned with what has been proposed, building in the additional feedback.

Action: Secretariat will review the services recommendations and build in the feedback ahead of the full report being circulated. 

Action: Secretariat to re-circulate letter on universal basic services to members alongside the minutes. 

Agenda item 6: deep dive session 3 – devolution and political will

CMac took members through the feedback around the framing of recommendations, particularly number 11 which calls for the UK and Scottish Government to work together to establish a new Devolution Commission, several members provided thoughts on the framing of calls that require further devolution for Scottish Government to implement.

Members thought that there was an assumption, as drafted, that further powers are needed to implement a MIG. Instead emphasis could be placed on recommending to the UK Government where it has the power, instead of asking Scottish Government to take forward recommendations they do not have the power to.

CMac opened the discussion to members:

• negotiation and collaboration between the Scottish Government and UK Government should be encouraged. The focus should be on practical solutions to policy issues using current devolved powers, rather than focusing on independence
• a suggestion was made to clarify which government holds which powers, so find areas where both governments can collaborate effectively and achieve common goals
• Local government should be considered and the role it plays
• framing: finding the right wording in the recommendations, particularly regarding further devolution. Framing it as governments working together, don’t alienate a future Scottish Government or focus too much on independence
• the report should help to facilitate a discussion around whether further powers/devolution is needed, whether through a commission or something more suitable

CMac summarised that the recommendations would be framed more collaboratively and not predicated solely on independence, reflecting this discussion. 

Action: Secretariat to draft two options for the recommendations in terms of framing to be included in the full report on framing between UK Government and Scottish Government. 

Agenda item 7: deep dive session 4 – time limited MIG

CMac explained this discussion would focus on recommendation 13, which is the key medium-term recommendation for social security. It is the introduction of a time-limited MIG to bring households below the relative poverty line up to it. 

From the feedback ahead of the meeting members had questions around the detail of how this recommendation would work in practice.

CMac opened the discussion on the time-limited MIG:

• other systems across Europe are time limited, so the proposal of a time-limited MIG would be in line with this. However, it was acknowledged that they have more dynamic private sectors
• concern over transferring people on and off the UKG systems, risk assessment needed for people falling through the cracks
• concerns over the appropriate length of the time limited MIG. It was suggested that six months is too short
• members supported a twelve month time-limited MIG – might be more realistic for individuals to secure sustainable employment
• members raised that the time limit would not be suitable for those who are unable to work full time due to caring responsibilities, disabilities or ill health
• the interaction between caring for a child was also raised, and requires further consideration, particularly the impact this would have around maternity pay etc. 
• there was a strong feeling that services should not be cut to finance a MIG
• women’s labour market participation should be monitored throughout the implementation of this, to ensure there are not unintended consequences. The accessibility of childcare will be fundamental to its success

CMac summarised that the time-limited MIG would be redrafted to being in place for 12 months and the wider concerns raised in this discussion would be factored into the work. 

Action: Secretariat to redraft recommendation 13 based on being in place for 12 months and build in wider concerns to the work. 

Agenda item 8: closing remarks

RG thanked everyone for their time and feedback on the vision and recommendations. The next meeting of the Group is scheduled for 5 December 2024.