Single Scottish Estate: Public Property Leaders Forum - February 2025

Attendees and apologies

• Alex Lane, Fire Scotland
• Anne McFadden, Creative Scotland
• Alastair Watson, Valuation Office Agency
• Carole Wells, NatureScot
• David Lyon, Scottish Government
• David McVeigh, Ferguson Marine
• David Swanson, Transport Scotland
• David Wilkie, Scottish Prison Service
• Euan McGalliard, Registers of Scotland
• Erin Durham, Scottish Government
• Fiona MacDonald, Scottish Government
• Gordon Alexander, Scottish Government
• Helen Gibson, Scottish Funding Council
• Ian Allen, Scotland Children's Reporter Administration
• Ian Bowie, Scottish Government
• Ivan McKee, Minister of Public Finance
• John Rough, Highlands and Island Airports Limited
• Keith Sefton, National Museums Scotland
• Lesley Price, Scottish Government
• Lorraine Wood, Scottish Government
• Mark Jummun, Social Security Scotland
• Mark Wilcock, Forestry and Land Scotland
• Michael Stevens, Redress
• Morag Angus, Scottish Government
• Paul Keoghan, Risk Management Agency
• Paula Fern, Scottish Government
• Philip Martin, Scottish Enterprise
• Ross MacDonald, East Lothian Council
• Rhona Ford, His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland
• Scott McEwen, Scottish Government
• Siobhan Rammell, Scottish Enterprise
• Steven Noble, Scottish Government
• Stuart McLaughlin, SNIB
• Tony Cooper, Police
• Victoria Bowman, Students Awards Agency Scotland
• some attendees have been redacted

Items and actions

Welcome, Minutes from Last Meeting and Previous Actions

The chair welcomed participants, and noted apologies from those unable to attend. Previous Minutes noted and approved without comment.

Previous Actions:         

1. Update existing data on the Public Sector Estate - Ongoing

2. Work to share key points from future Governance meetings with Forum - Ongoing         
3. Volunteers to test new property controls guidance - Completed          
4. Further information to be sent on Communications and Engagement - Completed                                                   

Ministerial Launch of Property Controls

Property Controls Q&A, Communications around Property Controls

The Chair welcomed the Minister for Public Finance, Mr Ivan McKee, to the meeting and invited the Minister to address the meeting and launch the Property Controls Guidance for Public Bodies.

Remarks by Minister for Public Finance, Mr Ivan McKee MSP: -

The Minister thanked the Chair noting that he was delighted to speak about the SSE programme and particularly launching the Property Controls Guidance (PCG) and templates.

Minister said that the forum was the best place to launch the PCG, noting that it supports and builds on work already taking place across the Public Sector estate, providing clarity on the process to be followed by public bodies.

Mr McKee noted progress on the SSE programme since the last meeting in September 2024.

• SSE had gone wider including NHS bodies and Local Authorities, and also engagements with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (CoSLA).

• SSE already reduced size, cost, emissions of the public sector estate, saving an overall total of £36 million to date. 

• Project well on the way to meeting the initial target of £50 million in benefits.

• The Minister congratulated the SSE team on achieving major savings so early in the programme. The SSE team are currently working on a Year One reflections report, which will include case studies on progress to date.

• Location Based Reviews (LBR) continuing to make progress in Inverness and with significant stakeholder engagement ongoing in Edinburgh

• Minister thanked everyone present who had helped with the engagement, and noted the large and complex nature of Edinburgh estate, with a mix of owned and leased buildings. LBR necessary to ensure most efficient approach is in place to with offices fully utilised to deliver excellent service to the Scottish public. A first report on Edinburgh LBR is expected around the end of March 2025.

• Minister noted he is a strong advocate of accurate and available data.

• Noted the Senior Responsible Officer (SRO) Morag Angus had written to board members, highlighting continued essential focus on property data improvement work, critical for decision making.

• Noted significant work has continued to ensure ePIMS data system is up to date and accurate, and up to date, in advance of transfer to the new Insite system in March 2025.

• Insite will record the condition of buildings, where information is available.

• New system will provide more in depth analytics, which members will benefit from,  provided the information provided by members  is up to date.

• New Property Controls guidance enhances existing practice, and has been kept straightforward and provides clearer insight into the process

• Focus on engagement with all sectors , supporting public service transformation by offering clear guidance and consistent methodology for leaseholds and property acquisitions.

The Minister thanked the Board for their attention, and invited any questions.

Comment: MW - Templates in Property Controls there to give clients help to provide a business case.

Question: LC - How do we break through barriers to ensure offices are “top notch”, especially with security controls differing by organisation ?

Mr McKee noted that the points raised are really important.

MA - Security issues are on the SSE teams radar.  Balancing access to properties with the need for required security levels. This is an ongoing journey with board members.

Question: AW -  Asked about Value for Money, and the collaborative approach, for example around net-zero. Will co-locating increase that element ?

Minister replied that once everyone is in the same environment, with the same standards this will help with the financial challenges

The Chair thanked the Minister for attending the meeting and launching the Property Controls Document.

The Minister thanked members for their questions,  and left the meeting.

Programme Update

The Chair gave an update on the main points, noting that now the Property Controls document launched, communications will follow to support awareness.

Location Based Reviews (LBR)

• Progressing current LBR in Perth, Edinburgh, and Inverness.
• New Scottish Government (SG) Project Board established in Perth, overseeing feasibility appraisal, recommendations for SG Perth office estate including Strathearn House occupation and Pullar House co-location proposal.

Communications and Engagement

• Gov.scot website is developing, which will also have the ability to publish minutes.  This will go live once a Privacy Notice agreement has been signed and agreed by all Forum members.
• MA wrote to Chief Executive Officers of all Public Bodies in December 2024, updating on progress and requesting support for moving from ePIMS to Insite, including completing a spreadsheet with their data.

The Chair invited any questions on Communications and Engagement.

Question: In the previous meeting, there was a proposal to have a bespoke website, where more creative communications could be published, is that still going ahead ?

The Chair noted that was the original intention, but due to the current spending controls within Government, the team are concentrating, for now, on the gov.scot website. It is hoped that during the 2025 -2026 financial year, this proposal could be re-visited. In the meantime, trying to make the gov.scot webpages as accessible as possible.

Glasgow Office Project (GOP)

• GOP team will appoint an agent to assist with Phase 2 of the project
• NatureScot, Care Inspectorate and Bord Na Gaidhlig are joining the GOP

PMO

• Further Gate 0 review scheduled for later in2025
• Benefits tracking has been developed and should be rolled out across the programme over the coming months.
• PMO met with Audit Scotland to update on SSE progress including recommendations from their 2023 report.

Risk 

Risk status is Amber/Green across all workstreams.

The Chair asked if there were any questions:

Question: The Chair was sked if there was one thing that could be done, to make things faster what would it be?

Chair replied improving Comms and Engagement would be helpful, and added that trust is also important, in the goal of delivering efficient services to the public.

Data work and Update

The Chair invited DL to give an update to the Forum.

• DL highlighted the importance of getting accurate data, as alluded to by the Minister. All ePIMS data will be transferred to Insite, which will go live on the 31st March 2025.
• 62% of Public Bodies have already updated their data, or been in touch with the Data team about it. David expressed a “genuine thank you” to everyone who has been in touch with them.
• There is still 22% who have not contacted Data Team, and they were urged to get in contact.

The Chair noted that the Minister’s is genuinely interested in data and the importance of its accuracy.

MA noted:

• That one of the questions asked earlier was to do with synergies of co-location. Data is important in enabling the team to identify bodies with similar characteristics.  The data will enable us to identify where there are properties underutilised, and to share that data with everyone, to ensure that resources are fully used. Data is a baseline for our future work.
• The new Insite system will enable the team to do more in-depth data analysis, such as the cost of providing a building in e.g. Perth as opposed to Dundee.

Question CW: Is SSE keen to issue a standard rate of density (e.g. Desk sharing ratios), this would help provide consistency in expectation and also drive down costs ?

MA commented: The SSE was not keen to issue a standard rate of density. To take the Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration as an example - their rate of office density is directly related to the sensitivity of the work they do and the services they need to supply in their buildings, compared to a straightforward Administration office, where there is a lot more predictability of use cases.

The Chair thanked DL for his update.

 SSE Open Discussion

The Chair opened the meeting to a free discussion of any issues which Forum members may wish to discuss.

MA noted:

• That the technical experience for some members joining the meeting online had not been ideal and expressed that she was very sorry for this, and assured members that the team will do everything possible to try to ensure a better online experience at the next meeting. 
• The SRO wondered whether it would be best if the next meeting was wholly in-person. Discussion topics could be set up in advance, as Forum Members are themselves likely to have a lot of answers to questions which could be shared.

E McG noted that Registers of Scotland (RoS) would be happy to host a future in-person meeting in either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

Question IH: One thing that has changed since Covid-19, is the use of office space. Differing organisations will be using space differently as a result of post Covid hybrid working, how is that being measured?

MA replied: The SSE is not setting a central standard. Within an LBR it will be for public bodies to let SSE know what their individual needs are. Morag invited Gordon Alexander to comment further.

GA further replied: The issue was partly addressed in the last couple of questions regarding standards. The important point is that in an LBR, SSE will go around the different public bodies to get an understanding of their individual needs, what sort of staffing there will be in the office. Looking at what people do, and how that will translate in to staffing ratios.

CK noted: The Care Inspectorate has a desk booking system, and  from that information they can determine what the needs of the organisation are going to be. They have closed some offices as a result and moved into Atlantic Quay 5 (AQ5).

BW noted: That it is important to take account of the different styles of work settings, which ELC has been doing through at its offices in Haddington.

Question JF: What is the methodology used to look at work settings ?

MA said the main methodology used is a LBR. Property Controls need to come forward all the time. For example, a building has 150 people, but has room for 500. The Minister would be keen to understand how different public bodies are considering how they could share that resource to ensure that it is used to its full capacity. The onus will be on all of us to ask these types of questions.

Question JF: Following on from the previous answer, will there be a requirement in KPI’s in the following months for a certain capacity requirement ?

MA replied: No, there won’t be. However, an Accountable Officer will have a duty to ensure Value for Money. That comes back to the Business Delivery Model. The question that might be asked is do you need a building in a particular location at all ? What it is hoped the SSE programme will do is bring everyone up to a common standard. Also, the current data sharing agreement is 25 years old, and is restrictive. Some concern is expressed about this, and perhaps we should visit this with a view to having a more open and transparent agreement.

Question HN: Is there any guidance at what level of financial exchange should be agreed between public bodies to use space in commercial rates/cover costs/any rates contribution in offsetting costs ?

MA replied: Yes guidance does exist. Cost Recovery basis. Public bodies covered by the Scottish Public Finance Manual (SPFM) should be generating no profit or loss between themselves. Provision for a small administrative charge to be levied towards the agreement. Accounting Officers must adhere to the guidance as described in the SPFM.

AOB

The Chair asked if there was any further business, and noted there was none. The Chair thanked members for their attendance, and asked members if there is any further business, could they please get in touch.

The Chair closed the meeting, noting that the Forum will reconvene at a date/time to be confirmed.