Disability and Carer Benefits Expert Advisory Group minutes: May 2022

Attendees and apologies

Present

• Jim McCormick (Chair)
• Tressa Burke (Deputy Chair)
• Jo McLaughlin
• Bill Scott
• Lucy Mulvagh
• Ed Pybus
• Simon Hodge
• Frank Reilly
• Lucinda Godfrey
• Angela O'Hagan

Apologies

• Fiona Collie
• Sarah Hammond
• Jatin Haria
• Alan McDevitt
• Shaben Begum
• Ewan MacDonald

In attendance

• Shona Robison (Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government)
• Ben Macpherson (Minister for Social Security and Local Government)
• Ian Davidson (Scottish Government)
• Kate Thompson-McDermott (Scottish Government)
• Ellen Searle (Scottish Government)

Secretariat

• Kirsty Milligan (Scottish Government)
• Connie Penman (Scottish Government)

Items and actions

Welcome from the Chair and group business

Jim welcomed everyone to the meeting and noted that due to it being a hybrid meeting, this was the first time the group had met in person since February 2020.

The group confirmed there were no declarations of interest nor any comments on the minutes of the previous meeting, therefore these were considered a true and accurate record.

Connie updated the group on the status of the actions from the previous quarterly meeting including the progress that had been made in relation to setting up a knowledge building session on Scottish tax powers. Action nine from the previous meeting is now complete. DACBEAG were provided with a response from officials that addressed all of the points they had raised in regards to the Indefinite Awards Ministerial response. group members were content and no longer had any concerns.

The group raised that it would be useful to extend an invite to the knowledge building session to key experts within other bodies and related advisory groups such as the Poverty and Inequality Commission and the Equality Budget Advisory Group depending on their capacity.

Action one: Extend invitations to attend the knowledge building session on Scottish tax powers to colleagues from the Equality Budget Advisory Group and the Poverty and Inequality Commission.

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: July 2022

Connie noted the International Comparisons meeting discussed at the previous quarterly meeting had been held in March.

Action two: Share slides and note of the International Comparisons meeting with the group.

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of May 2022

Update on the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice

Connie provided an update on the status of the Beyond a Safe and Secure Transfer advice and noted that it was with the Chair and Deputy Chair for comment before being sent to the wider group.

Action three: Respond to the draft of the Beyond a Safe and Secure Transfer advice

Action for: Group members

Action by:  30th June 2022

Discussion with the Cabinet Secretary and Minister

Jim then welcomed the Cabinet Secretary of Social Justice, Housing and Local Government, Ms Shona Robison, and Minister for Social Security and Local Government, Mr Ben Macpherson, to the meeting.

Jim informed them of the work the group had done since they last met including a knowledge building sessions on Motability and the Accessible Vehicles and Equipment Scheme and the Fiscal Framework, the International Comparisons meeting, providing advice on the Adult Disability Payment (ADP) Decision Report and contributing to the review of DACBEAG.

The Cabinet Secretary thanked the group for the opportunity to attend. She noted that she and the Minister regarded DACBEAG as a valuable asset and thanked the group for the work they had done on their detailed and thoughtful advice. The Cabinet Secretary then reflected on the progress that had been made since the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 had passed.

The Minister also thanked the group for the work they have done and noted his hope that it was clear in his responses to them how much he valued their work, particularly their advice on complex subjects such as Indefinite Awards.

The Minister noted that he had seen first-hand the value of independent scrutiny and advice on developing policy and explained that it is now being considered how this should be shaped for the remainder of the parliamentary term, considering what is still to be done and the changes to the social security policy landscape. He stated that they were still reviewing the best way forward for the group alongside the independent review of ADP which he and the Cabinet Secretary were interested to hear the group’s views on.

Jim thanked the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister for their reflections and asked the group for any questions or comments. The following topics were discussed amongst the meeting attendees:

• homeless accommodation, housing benefit and community care grants
• the DWP’s proposal to merge Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) and PIP assessments and the consequences for devolved disability benefits
• the Social Security Advisory Committee
• the incorporation of international human rights law into Scottish law
• Care provision, care economy and care related income not appearing in the  National Strategy for Economic Transformation
• Experience Panels lacking capacity building peer support and an ongoing relationship. The group urged the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister to continue to engage with organisations who are coming from movements of change and movements of peer support

• trauma informed practise training within the Scottish Government
• in Scotland, regulations are per benefit rather than one set of regulations for all the common rules as there is in the DWP system. This has resulted in slight discrepancies in the system. The group were keen that this was considered for review as part of the upcoming ADP review
• policy plans for individuals aged 65+ that are in receipt of Disability Living Allowance

The Cabinet Secretary and the Minister thanked the group for their time and indicated that the discussion had been extremely useful.

Jim noted that the advice analysis tracker document highlighted the group’s productivity and the way the group has worked with officials on constructive and necessary changes. Whilst the group can be resource intensive for members it is gratifying that their work is taken on board by the Scottish Government and they have built good relationships to do so.

Equalities and human rights discussion – Carers benefits

Jim welcomed officials to present on their approach to equalities and human rights considerations during policy development, specifically from a Carer Benefits policy perspective. Officials then asked the group for any questions or comments.

The attendees of the meeting then discussed the following:

• human rights in regards to international law, jurisprudence and social security
• human rights as being separate but complimentary to equality considerations

• the changes to the policy development processes as a result of these considerations and the lessons for analysts and other colleagues to learn from the work presented to the group during the meeting
• the Scottish Human Rights Commission
• DACBEAG members who were also members of the Carer Benefits Advisory Group noted that officials working in this space were open and receptive around the needs of disabled people who are also carers. They had taken many things stakeholders had raised forward into developing the related aspects of policy
• the meaning of the statement in the Carers (Scotland) Act 2016 “willing and able to care”
• those with physical and psychological trauma that have had their human rights denied because they are not citizens and the issues associated with No Recourse to Public funds
• the equal weighting of human rights and equality

Officials thanked everyone for their input and noted that the group had raised points that would be linked in to decision and policy making going forward. The group were keen to highlight the clear time and effort dedicated by the Carer Benefits policy team to progressing human rights and equality work and Jim thanked officials for being so helpful, thoughtful and open.

Action four: Share slides from Ellen’s presentation

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of May 2022

Any other business

The group discussed the concluded review of the group, the future of DACBEAG and options for their continuation.

Group members agreed that they would be content to meet again in August by which time further clarity on the longer term plan was expected to be available and this would also provide the time to complete outstanding pieces of work.

Action five: Share DACBEAG review document with the Group

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: End of May 2022

Group members raised the following in regards to the future of the group:

• the current function and form of the Group is closely related therefore any changes to one would influence a change to the other
• DACBEAG have a distinctive function in that they provide advice to and receive responses directly from the Minister
• the group’s success to date can be largely attributed to the individual members and their relationship with officials – it would take time to re-build this in another form
• the group work well as a collective voice and are trusted with confidential information from the government
• if the group were to continue there would be gaps in the membership that would need to be filled

Thanks and close

Action log:

• action one: Extend invitations to attend the knowledge building session on Scottish tax powers to colleagues from the Equality Budget Advisory Group and the Poverty and Inequality Commission. Action for Secretariat. Action by July 2022
• action two: Share slides and note of the International Comparisons meeting with the group. Action for Secretariat. Action by end of May 2022
• action three: Respond to the draft of the Beyond a Safe and Secure Transfer advice. Action for group members. Action by 30th June 2022
• action four: Share slides from Ellen’s presentation. Action for Secretariat. Action by end of May 2022
• action five: Share DACBEAG review document with the Group. Action for Secretariat. Action by end of May 2022