Disability and Carer Benefits Expert Advisory Group minutes: August 2022

Attendees and apologies

Present

• Jim McCormick (Chair)
• Tressa Burke (Deputy Chair)
• Lucy Mulvagh; Fiona Collie
• Jo McLaughlin
• Simon Hodge
• Ed Pybus
• Bill Scott

Apologies

• Frank Reilly
• Ewan Macdonald
• Shaben Begum
• Alan McDevitt

In attendance

• Jane Sterry (Scottish Government)
• Kate Thomson-McDermott (Scottish Government)
• Lynn Shaw (Scottish Government)
• Dawn Kane (Scottish Government)

Secretariat

• Kirsty Milligan (Scottish Government)
• Connie Penman (Scottish Government)

Items and actions

Welcome and group business

Jim welcomed everyone to the meeting. The group confirmed that there were no comments on the minutes of the previous meeting, therefore these were considered a true and accurate record.

Bill and Fiona declared an interest under agenda item 4 when the group discussed the Employment Injury Assistance advice as the Scottish replacement for the Industrial Injuries Disablement Scheme.

Connie updated the group on the status of the actions from the previous quarterly meeting noting that they had all been completed. She mentioned that there were some outstanding actions from the February quarterly meeting, but these were in progress.

Connie then updated the group that four members – Angela O’Hagan (Glasgow Caledonian University), Lucinda Godfrey (Dundee Carers Centre), Jatin Haria (Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights) and Sarah Hammond (East Ayrshire Citizens Advice Bureau) - had decided to step down from the group and the Minister would be issuing them with thank you letters in due course.

Jim informed the group that he and Tressa had met with Ben Macpherson, Minister for Social Security and Local Government to discuss the future of DACBEAG following him and Shona Robison, Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government attending the quarterly meeting in May. He noted that the Minister had then written to the group on the 1st July 2022 and at this time there was no clarity on what would happen in the future in regards to independent advice and scrutiny. During the meeting the internal capacity and resources within the Scottish Government had been discussed. The final decision would be made by Scottish Ministers following an options appraisal.

Tressa added that during the meeting with the Minister she had raised her concerns around the future of the Scottish Commission on Social Security (SCoSS), considering the board is made up of public appointments.

Jim invited attendees to share their views on the content of the letter. The group discussed the following:

• Scotland’s social security system: enhanced administration and compensatory recovery consultation – opened 4th Aug 2022, closes 27th October 2022. This consultation included seeking views on the current and potential future arrangements around provisions of independent advice and scrutiny of social security. It mentioned DACBEAG and SCoSS specifically. Group members were interested in seeing the responses to this part of the consultation, and understanding the role these responses would play in deciding the future of the group
• the group discussed the relevance of this part of the consultation
• the group acknowledged the consultation set out proposals to address many of the issues the group had highlighted over the years. Members discussed that this highlighted the benefit of the group
• members discussed the background provided within this part of the consultation, specifically the information on the different roles of DACBEAG and SCoSS
• individuals are members of DABGEAG independently. They are not on the group to act as representatives of their organisations. Therefore, each of the organisations they work for were able to respond to this part of the consultation freely

• the group discussed their conflict in being able to provide a collective response as DACBEAG
• members compared a potential future SCoSS to the Social Security Advisory Committee. It was discussed that providing both an advisory function and scrutiny function was possible with the right membership and Secretariat support

• the Industrial Injuries Advisory Committee question was noted as an entirely separate issue

• the group noted the future advice the Minister had requested in his letter
• the current understanding was that DACBEAG would end in February 2023

Jim raised that the Minister had written to the group ahead of the consultation being published. It was concluded that the group would respond to the Minister’s letter of 1st July 2022

Action one: Respond to the Minister's letter of 1st July 2022

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 30th September 2022

Beyond a safe and secure transfer advice

Connie thanked the group for their time and effort towards drafting the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice.

In regards to the proposed inclusion of a section outlining key issues around the Accessible Vehicles and Equipment (AVE) scheme the following four options were discussed:

Option one:

Write a letter to officials asking a number of questions related to the AVE scheme but make no formal recommendations at this time.

Option two:

Write a letter to officials asking a number of questions related to the AVE scheme and include related draft recommendations for information. Add the formal related recommendations in to the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice.

Option three:

Do not write a letter to officials. Instead, include a new section in the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice which would cover the key issues related to the AVE scheme and a number of related recommendations.

Option four:

Do not write a letter to officials and do not include a new AVE scheme section in the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice. Instead, provide a separate piece of proactive advice on the AVE scheme directly to the Minister.

The group agreed to proceed with option four.

Action two: Develop AVE scheme proactive advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 16th December 2022

Connie then spoke to the group around including a section outlining key relevant issues related to Scottish Tax Powers. This followed a knowledge building session that had been help on this topic on 19th July 2022.

The group discussed the following:

• this was an area that required further discussion, specifically on what was most relevant to disability and carer benefits and the group’s remit
• the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice should acknowledge that this knowledge building session had taken place
• current disability and carer’s benefits were not adequate. Therefore, more investment was required. The group discussed if it was within their remit to suggest where this additional spending and funding should come from

Connie then asked the group for general comments on the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice and they provided the following:

• it would be useful to go through the advice in-depth in small groups to ‘tighten up’ certain areas as this is an important piece of work that could influence the way the Scottish Government develops disability and carer benefits
• this should only delay the proposed submission date by around two weeks, from the end of August to mid-September
• where possible, recommendations should have timescales associated with them
• an executive summary should be added at the beginning of the document

Action three: Organise small working groups to finalise the beyond a safe and secure transfer advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 9th September 2022

Action four: Draft executive summary for the beyond a safe and secure transfer

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 31st August 2022

Action five: Confirm the date of the February 2023 quarterly meeting

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 31st August 2022

Jim noted that aside from the planned quarterly meetings, there would also be a knowledge building session planned to inform the ongoing Employment Injury Assistance (EIA) advice, which would be discussed further later in the meeting.

Scottish Carer’s Assistance at launch

Jim welcomed Jane Sterry, Lynn Shaw and Dawn Kane to present an update on SCA at launch, the future of Carer’s Allowance Supplement (CAS), Carer’s Additional Person Payment (CAPP) and future SCA changes with early analysis from the SCA consultation.

Following the presentation the group and officials discussed the following:

• the need for clear support and information for carer’s around adding caring hours together and CAPP eligibility to ensure they make a claim
• CAPP eligibility criteria, specifically the requirement to be providing 20 hours of care for the additional person. This adds up to a significant number of hours of caring per week
• the simplicity of incorporating CAS payments with regular SCA payments

• regular extra payments making a real difference to carers, especially in current times with the cost of living crisis

• the positives of removing the education restrictions given they act as a barrier not only to young carers, but to carers of any age with a desire to develop their skills
• the need to evaluate SCA to ensure the policy outcomes are being delivered upon
• the possibilities around application data collection including management information relevant to the re-determination and appeal process. 
• the past presence test and the related interactions between the Scottish and UK systems

• the proposals for nil awards
• benefit uprating, the earnings limit and the National Minimum Wage

• income maximisation for carers - Universal Credit and CAS
• equality and human rights issues
• modelling the impacts on poverty reduction
• estimated take up rates
• closing the gap between policy intent and impacts on people’s lives

Officials thanked the group for the informative discussion and Jim thanked the officials for attending.

Action six: Invite SCA officials to provide a further update during the November quarterly meeting

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 3 November 2022

Group discussion

Employment Injury Assistance advice

Kate raised that the first draft of the EIA advice reflected the relevant discussions from the quarterly meeting of August 2021 and agreed that a knowledge building session would be a good next step given the complexities of the existing equivalent DWP scheme.

Jim asked the group for their views and the following was discussed:

• those who are currently in receipt of Industrial Injury Disablement Benefit (IIDB) should continue to receive it
• there is separate question on what to do in the long-term in terms of new applicants
• EIA is not means tested and therefore sits out with other benefits, adding further complexity
• IIDB is outdated and highly gendered
• women were not previously equally included in compensatory schemes
• although it would take a lot of work to reform IIDB, the Group would not like to see it abandoned
• individuals are entitled to compensation if their work has resulted in injury

• the existing IIDB evidence base - up to date information, reflective of today’s risks specifically around Long Covid
• IIDB is important as it gives compensation for no fault injury
• given IIDB is paper based, the potential scope to continue agency agreements and create something new for EIA, expanding it to cover risks that are relevant today

• the group agreed with the principle of IIDB, but as a benefit they concluded it needed reform

• there is currently no eligibility around mental health or PTSD included
• it is difficult to appeal decisions as they are based on an individual doctor’s opinion

• international comparisons

• the increased cost of an updated and fair system vs the cost implications of not doing it on other areas of the system, going beyond the financial costs
• the need for cross government working on this

Kate noted that compensatory benefits are generally reserved to the UK Government which does add to the complexity of this. The Scottish Government Library could be approached to identify if any related analysis in this area had been done.

Action seven: Commission the Scottish Government Library to identify relevant existing IIDB analysis

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 30 September 2022 

Action eight: Add relevant references shared by group members as an annex to the existing draft of the EIA advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 30 September 2022

Jim asked the group to let the Secretariat know of any contacts that could support the planned knowledge building session in this area.

Action nine: Group members to provide the Secretariat with contacts with relevant expertise related to IIDB

Action for: Group members

Action by: 16 September 2022

Action ten: Organise knowledge building session to inform the drafting of the EIA advice

Action for: Secretariat

Action by: 30 September 2022

Thanks and close

Action log

• action one: Respond to the Minister's letter of 1st July 2022. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 30th September 2022
• action two: Develop AVE scheme proactive advice. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 16th December 2022
• action three: Organise small working groups to finalise the beyond a safe and secure tansfer advice. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 9th September 2022
• action four: Draft executive summary for the beyond a safe and secure transfer. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 31st August 2022
• action five: Confirm the date of the February 2023 quarterly meeting. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 31st August 2022
• action six: Invite SCA officials to provide a further update during the November quarterly meeting. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 3rd November 2022
• action seven: Commission the Scottish Government Library to identify relevant existing IIDB amalysis. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 30th September 2022
• action eight: Add relevant references shared by group members as an annex to the existing draft of the EIA advice. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 30th September 2022
• action nine: Group members to provide the Secretariat with contacts with relevant expertise related to IIDB. Action for: Group members Action by: 16th September 2022
• action ten: Organise knowledge building session to inform the drafting of the EIA advice. Action for: Secretariat Action by: 30th September 2022