Children's Hearings Redesign Board minutes: March 2025

Attendees and apologies

Members

• Laura Caven, COSLA, Co-Chair 
• Brian Taylor, Scottish Government, Co-Chair 
• Neil Hunter, Principal Reporter, Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration
• Elliot Jackson, National Convener, Children’s Hearings Scotland
• Lindsey Byrne, Social Work Scotland

Guests

• Sheriff David Mackie

Officials

• John Urquhart, COSLA
• Tom McNamara, Scottish Government
• Emma Wilson, Scottish Government
• Susan Downes, Scottish Government (secretariat)

Items and actions

Welcome and introductions

Brian Taylor started by thanking Sheriff Mackie for attending today, then asked members to introduce themselves.

Progress and activity

Emma Wilson provided an update on the progress of the work underway in both the legislative and practice areas.

The redesign team are awaiting formal feedback from the Parliamentary Councils’ Office (PCO) in terms of draft provisions, so it is not currently possible to give an indication of what is likely to feature in the legislation. As feedback is received and the Minister is briefed, we will be able to have further conversations about the shape of the legislation and the direction of travel with key stakeholders.

The Children's and Young People's Centre for Justice (CYCJ) have published their analysis of the consultation responses. This is a substantial document which reflects the detailed and wide ranging views received from the 105 respondents. It is worth noting that not everyone answered all the questions, but the responses received have informed the development of the policy instructions for the legislation and provide a comprehensive source of evidence to the redesign programme. The consultation analysis and detailed responses will continue to inform all of the work as it progresses.

Emma offered some reassurance that all of the issues which were consulted on are being considered, even if they don’t feature in the primary legislation. The Bill at introduction will not be the entirety of the redesign work.

At the last board there was discussion about developing an overarching vision for the programme, Tom McNamara has done some initial work on a paper to be circulated before the next board to draw in the views of all the members. This will define the work of the Redesign Board and the redesign programme.

There has been a great deal of work done by the Planning Group around thematic workstreams which draw on the recommendations of the Hearings for Children report and build on other work that is ongoing within each of the organisations. The thematic workstreams have been identified as initial priority areas but there are a number of other areas that we know we will need to plan for going forward. This is about ensuring that work is sequenced and moves at an appropriate pace.

Preparing for Hearings workstream

This is an area we know that children and young people have a particular interest in, and we are delighted that Gordon Main from OHOV will be the project lead. There are a large number of recommendations relating to the planning and preparation phase for the hearing, so these have been included in the project initiation document for that workstream. This work should be starting very soon.

A number of key organisations have been identified to participate in this work including all those represented on the Redesign Board plus advocacy and legal aid. Gordon is also planning to run in parallel a workstream involving members from Our Hearings Our Voice (OHOV) and other young people and is keen to involve Sheriff Mackie in this work.

Data workstream

There were a number of recommendations relating to data and there are a number of issues around data that are of interest to the Redesign Board. Scottish Government have had conversations with CELCIS about how they may be able to support this workstream and the scope of the project is currently being considered. This is likely to be a longer term workstream, stretching over the length of the programme.

Culture Workstream

At the last Planning Group meeting Social Work Scotland (SWS) agreed to take the lead on the culture workstream. There was a lot of conversation about change management and approaches to change and efforts will be made to learn from other projects and programmes. A project outline will be shared with the Redesign Board before their next meeting.

Referral workstream

Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration (SCRA) have been working on a project which we intend to expand to become the referral workstream. This work will also connect with the work on referral within the legislative landscape.

Timeframes

The redesign team intends to bring a draft vision along with an overarching timeframe to the April Board meeting that brings together the plan for all of the current workstreams.

The programme is continuing to involve Elaine Adams in the development of ongoing work. She will be updating the list of recommendations mapped against all the work that organisations have underway. She will also be identifying relevant planned activities relating to each of the workstreams and capturing examples of good practice.

As the workstreams develop and get underway the next phase for the planning group will be to look at what other projects may be required and consider how this can be properly phased to reflect the capacity within the system.

Sheriff Mackie indicated that he would find it helpful to have a programme of work or a timetable.

Emma confirmed that the intention is to have a timeline and to identify the other work going on for example the Children’s Care and Justice (Scotland) Act implementation. We want to ensure that the work is planned properly and phased appropriately to be realistic about system capacity and that nothing is missed.

Tom McNamara remarked that there is a live programme of work that not only reflects the inherited improvement activity that is agency specific but also reflects the work that the Redesign Board and Planning Group have been doing. This needs to be overlaid with the detail of what is and is not going to be in the Bill. Officials can provide further updates to the Board and to Sheriff Mackie once there is clarity from Ministers about what is within the Bill and what will move over for the Board.

Neil Hunter agreed there is a huge critical mass of work taking place which reflects the fact that the Redesign Board has been carefully picking through some of the priorities for the next phase. The Board and its sub-group has taken the necessary time to scope out objectives and get some baseline data. This background work will pay real dividends as we move through the programme because it will ensure we can do the work properly. It is being done as a highly collaborative piece of work with a real sense of working together.

Sheriff Mackie hopes that one of the roles he can fulfil in the implementation phase is to acts as a bridge with the judiciary. There have been calls for specialisation for professionals and judiciary, so there is a very good climate to engage with the judiciary and move this issue forward.   

Elliot Jackson raised the messaging and challenge around panel members, maintaining the current system while redesigning it for the future. The work the Redesign Board did with the Government around the publication of the consultation was important. CHS took a robust thematic approach the consultation to make sure that panel members had their say, even if that national team had differing opinions.

Elliot also shared details of work underway: on the non-legislative requirements, issues like greeting the child and retiring to make a decision were accepted as things that could immediately progress, and so these are being implemented, and it is making a difference. These are small things, but they could have a huge impact on the child’s experience.

Emma noted that during engagement sessions for the consultation exercise there was considerable enthusiasm for the children’s hearing system and a willingness to get involved and work together from all the professionals and volunteers.

Laura Caven noted the importance of the culture workstream, particularly for local government and social work. Laura took the opportunity to ask Sheriff Mackie for advice around the involvement of the wider system, how do we make sure it is a whole system culture approach?

Sheriff Mackie the starting point would be the Hearings for Children report reflects the voice of the entire sector. There is also a strong sense that we need to align processes to lead to more collaborative role for everyone involved, especially social workers.  There is a really strong recognition that language, tone and volume matter in this tribunal model more than any other. We really should not underestimate the importance of culture, and it affects people’s attitudes, experience and outcomes.

Lindsey Byrne said we cannot understate this area of culture and trying to reset that culture, it is fair to say that the social work community have not felt entirely an equal partner in the process to date, but that is being addressed. The social work workforce really struggle with the culture and how it feels to attend a children’s hearing for all participants. They are keen to make it a place where nobody needs to feel worried about how they will be treated.

Informal adviser role

Brian mentioned the informal advisory role and that Sheriff Mackie earlier noted he hopes to be the bridge to the judiciary and assist with some of the OHOV work, which would be incredibly helpful. The purpose of today’s meeting was to have a proper introductory session, so that the Board are easily able to get in touch in future for external help and challenge. The role can evolve over time as required.

Sheriff Mackie noted that at the moment there is no particular structure to his role, so he is available to support and help in any way he can. His engagement so far has been through a few meetings with the Minister which have covered particular matters such as consultation and in a sense the role will develop as it needs to. At some point there will be a need for engagement with the judiciary on the more formal side of this process and he is happy to undertake that liaison.

Elliot emphasised the importance of continued commitment and sustained momentum the programme despite the likely shifting Ministerial landscape and competing policy and practice demands.

Sheriff Mackie noted his role is as independent adviser and not a politician, so can reach out to people with seniority to discuss and advance some of this work.

Neil highlighted that as well as the landscape changing it is important not to forget the resilience issues all organisations are facing. Resilience is a constant challenge whether it is in relation to recruitment and retention of panel members, recruitment and retention of social workers or financial pressures all of the bodies face. It is critical in this process that the Board act as a team.

Brian concluded the meeting by thanking everyone for their time and noting that the team will be in touch regarding future briefing on legislative proposals as soon as they are in a position to do so.