Building and fire safety - ministerial working group: Grenfell inquiry phase 2 minutes: February 2025

• Chair - Minister for Housing
• Minister for Victims and Community Safety (MVCS)
• Chris Ashurst (CA), Chair, High Rise Scotland Action Group
• Scott McKenzie (SM), Local Authority Building Standards Scotland
• Professor Luke Bisby (LB), University of Edinburgh
• Peter Drummond (PD), RIAS
• Mike Callaghan (MC), COSLA
• Tony Cain (TC), ALACHO
• Bill Connolly (BC), NHS Assure
• Robert Scott, HM Fire Service Inspectorate
• Stephen Garvin (SGa), DD, Building Standards Division
• Lisa Goldie (LG), Head of Construction Procurement Policy Unit
• Neil Mitchell (NM), Head Development Unit, BSD
• Steven Scott (SS), Head Technical Unit, BSD
• Colette Templeton (CT), Development Unit, BSD
• Tom Hardy, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Lisel Porch (LP), Fire and Rescue Unit
• Chris Booth, Fire and Rescue Unit
• Joanne Boyle, Cladding Remediation
• Cameron Murdoch, Development Unit, Building Standards Division (BSD)
• Frank Doherty, BSD
• Alan Rodden, Practice Unit, BSD
• Colin Hird, Technical Unit, BSD
• Scott Young, Technical Unit, BSD
• Benny Rooney, Technical Unit, BSD
• Sarah Waugh, Development Unit, BSD
• Sandy Robinson, Planning, Architecture and Regeneration Division

Apologies

• Kenny Barbour, Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS)
• Jonathan Henderson, SRFS
• Chris Getty, SFRS
• Hywel Davies
• Lester MacDonald, Civil Contingencies Division
• Anne Cook, Better Homes Division

Items and actions

Welcome

The Chair welcomed everyone and provided an update on the meeting earlier this week with Ministers from UK Government (UKG) and Devolved Administrations and the expected publication later today of the UKG response to the Grenfell Phase 2 Report. The UKG will accept all recommendations, although some of them in principle.

Meeting Business

CT covered the business from the last meeting held on 16 January 2025.

• Apologies were noted
• All members present agreed the note of the last meeting
• Actions set out in Paper MWG-GI2 21 were covered

Construction Procurement

LG presented Paper MWG-G12 21 Recommendation 4 Appointment of a Chief Construction Advisor.

The paper sets out consideration of the Inquiry’s recommendation that UKG appoint a Chief Construction Adviser (CCA) with sufficient budget and staff to provide advice on all matters affecting the construction industry. In 2013 the Review of Scottish Public Sector Procurement in Construction made a similar recommendation. At that time the decision on the appointment was deferred.

A gap analysis has been undertaken, and four options are presented in the paper for consideration by the Group. Scottish Government have considered 4 options – 1. doing nothing, 2. Creating a formal steering group, 3. Chief construction advisor post, and 4. creating construction directorate. The creation of a CCA has been mapped out and is set out in annex a.

It is recommended that further work is taken forward through an options appraisal. This will develop each of the options and make a preferred recommendation. The options appraisal will inform a full formal public consultation. It is expected that work will take around 9-12 months and will require a dedicated staff team and budget to deliver.

The meeting discussed the paper and PD advised that RIAS has no objection in principle to the creation of this new post. It was noted that a similar role had existed in England previously and there were a number of advantages and disadvantages that need to be recognised.

SGa advised that UKG have advised that this recommendation will be accepted however there is no detail yet on how it will be delivered.

The Group agreed the 4 options laid out in the paper and the further work required around them.

Fire Recommendations

LP presented Paper MWG-GI2 22 Fire Risk Assessor Competency.

The paper sets out the work to be taken forward on legislative change around ensuring that a duty holder (business owner) under the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 must hire a competent fire risk assessor. This work will take a number of years to develop and is the longer-term objective. Work will be in two stages, with stage 1, considering and developing the necessary steps to bring forward primary legislation changes to ensure that duty holders must hire a competent assessor. Stage 2 will be considering the wide range of measures required to create a regulator for this profession.

The UKG will, in responding to the Grenfell Report, accept the recommendation which will take forward the introduction of mandatory accreditation.

The work to be taken forward under each stage was set out and Fire and Rescue Unit (FRU) is working with a member of the Scottish Government Priority Projects Unit to take this forward. Consideration will also be required on the need for additional amendments or additions to the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005.

MVCS agreed that the recommendation should be accepted in full and sought clarity on any reserved or devolved crossover. There is potential for change under the Professional Qualifications Act and Scottish Government Legal Department (SGLD) has advised that there will need to be further consideration on this matter.

The meeting recognised the potential impact of changes to the profession on the Cladding Remediation Programme as change may require learning and development for the existing workforce. It was agreed that any impacts will need to be considered and taken account of to minimise disruption.

The proposals were agreed with the caveat that policy development, legal considerations and a public consultation will be undertaken. Work will be undertaken with the UK Government to understand any wider implications around reserved powers.

GH presented Paper MWG-GI2 23 and provided a summary of the considerations being undertaken on the recommendations which have fallen to Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS) to take forward. Progress across the 15 recommendations is set out in the paper. In relation to Recommendation 27 drop keys SFRS have considered the issues identified that lead to the recommendation. While this doesn’t appear to be a problem in Scotland the SFRS Operational Assurance Review Group will continue to keep this under review. SGa advised that a change to the guidance in Section 2 (Fire) of the Technical Handbooks may also be required.

SFRS are also involved in a number of recommendations and are supporting discussions with FRU on how to deliver an awareness raising campaign on fire safety which may involve a digital approach along with a leaflet drop.

CA advised the meeting about a recent tenant’s survey which has highlighted that people living in high rise buildings have little or no knowledge on action they needed to undertake in an emergency.

MVCS reported on a recent discussion with the High-Rise Scotland Action Group in relation to the fire risks associated with lithium-ion batteries in electric scooters and bikes. Advice on the storage of these items and the risks should be covered in any communications to tenants.

GH advised that SFRS recognise the challenge on communications and are keen to identify effective options for the future. How we consume and use information is changing and GH welcomed feedback from members. The issues being presented by lithium-ion batteries are presenting a challenge and it is important that effective advice and communications are provided. A SFRS Electric Instructor Working Group is already looking at different dynamics of electric fires.

CA told the Group that a meeting had been arranged for next week with building factors and the Scottish Response team to discuss and identify how they can be more involved to strengthen the sector. Part of the discussions will be around how information, including safety information is provided to new owners and tenants. Chair recognised the important role that local authorities and incident teams need to play.

It was agreed that further work with tenants’ groups will be undertaken to inform the presentation and distribution of safety information.

Situation Report

SGa presented Paper MWG-GI2 24. A summary across the recommendations and next steps were set out in the paper.

Recommendation 1 on the single regulator will be accepted by UKG and taken forward. The potential conflict of interest of the role with responsibility for regulation, testing and certification was recognised. Any change will take time, and the Scottish Government is committed to working with UKG and devolved administrations on matters that are reserved.

SGa reminded members that the building standards system in Scotland was different to that in England and Wales and as such the same issues identified as problems were not the same in Scotland. The UKG had announced the move of the fire functions from the Home Office to MHCLG.

A discussion had taken place with Luke Bisby and his team at Edinburgh University in relation to the work ongoing on testing cladding assemblies and the potential to feed into the UKG considerations on a construction library.

The Group were content with progress and direction.

Draft Response

SGa provided an update on the meeting on 25 February with Ministers from the UK and devolved administrations where it was agreed that a 4 Nations approach to delivery would be adopted going forward. This will be established by officials.

The Scottish Government response to Grenfell is expected to be on 25 March. Time is being given to the UKG response and engagement with and statement to the Scottish Parliament by the Minister for Housing will be delivered.

Engagement with stakeholders in Scotland to consider the recommendations and prepare a response has been ongoing including an event with the Building Standards Futures Board and stakeholder at the end of January.

The response report is being prepared, and it is expected that a draft will be sent to Ministers and the MWG next week. It is important that we recognise the action we have already taken forward in Scotland through changes to guidance, introduction of new requirements and other actions to strengthen the system through the work of the Futures Board.

SGa advised that looking forward the need for changes to legislation will be identified. Delivering the compliance plan and the new role of compliance plan manger will require a change to legislation. Changes to fire legislation will also need to take place to support our ambition it is likely that some of this may need to be actioned beyond the next parliament. SGa invited feedback from members on any aspects discussed today.

The Action Plan for Cladding Remediation will also be published on 25 March. Both publications will be supported by a statement in the Scottish Parliament.

Any Other Competent Business

Chair advised that the next scheduled meeting of the MWG will be re-arranged. He is attending the Local Government Housing Committee on 27 March.

Action: New date to be arranged.

Actions

1. Next scheduled meeting to be rearranged.