Children’s Advocacy in the Children’s Hearings System: Expert Reference Group minutes: March 2025

Attendees and apologies

• Pam Semple, Scottish Government, Chair
• Amerdeep Kaur, Law Society of Scotland
• Bryan Evans, Children 1st
• Eve Manderson, Borders Independent Advocacy Service
• Heather MacMaster, Angus Independent Advocacy
• Jane Crawford, CAPS Independent Advocacy
• Julie Hutton, Independent Advocacy Perth and Kinross 
• Kay McKerrell, Who Cares? Scotland 
• Louise Piaskowski, Scottish Government
• Mel McDonald, Children’s Hearings Scotland 
• Melissa Hunt, Scottish Children’s Report Administration 
• Micheál Phelan, Clan Childlaw
• Nikki Speirs, East Ayrshire Advocacy Services
• Pauline Cavanagh, Partners in Advocacy 
• Rebecca Scott, Clan Childlaw
• Sarah Bannerman, Clan Childlaw
• Selwyn McCausland, Barnardo’s
• Tom McNamara, Scottish Government

Apologies

• Alicja Piliszczuk, Borders Independent Advocacy Service
• Avril Muir, Angus Independent Advocacy
• Elaine Adams, Centre for Excellence for Children’s Care and Protection 
• Gordon Main, Our Hearings, Our Voice
• Emma Macleod, Advocacy Western Isles
• Suzanne Swinton, Scottish Independent Advocacy Alliance

Items and actions

Items and actions

This note provides an overview of the agenda, discussion, and action points from the meeting of the Children’s Hearings Advocacy Expert Reference Group (ERG). Once agreed by members the meeting note will be published. 

The meeting was held by videoconference on Thursday 6 March 2025. Papers issued for this meeting included: the agenda; minute of the last meeting 20 November 2024; Scottish Government (SG) update paper; and Scottish children’s reporter administration (SCRA) update papers. 

welcome, introductions and apologies

The chair welcomed members, noted apologies, and introduced new member representatives Amerdeep Kaur from the Law Society of Scotland Child and Family Sub-committee and Rebecca Scott, Head of Legal Services from Clan childlaw who is to carry forward the role Sarah Bannerman has supported.

Minutes and actions from previous meetings

The chair invited any changes to the draft note. No comments were requested. The note was agreed, and it was confirmed it will be published on the Scottish Government website. 

The chair provided an update on the actions and activity from the last meeting.

Action 1 - Elaine will connect in with Mel to share the approach and learning from the Glasgow training. Mel will connect with colleagues to discuss opportunities to systemically include the clearly defined roles of safeguarders and advocacy worker in panel community training.

Update – action is complete. Mel McDonald confirmed conversations and connections are happening although not exactly in the intended way. There are no developments to mention yet. 

Action 2 – A meeting of the training sub-group of the Children’s hearings advocacy national provider network (NPN) to be set up to discuss the training and information sharing matters raised in the evaluation report.

Update – The chair questioned whether a sub-group of NPN and ERG would be appropriate and invited Kay to update of behalf of NPN, next agenda item. The proposal is to bring together the ERG Training sub-group to review the skills and development framework and consider plans and timeline for implementation including development of a qualification for child advocacy workers. It was concluded both would likely be appropriate. It was noted the membership of the sup-group will need reviewed. 

Action 3 – Scottish Government will ask Kay if there is anything that the NPN would want to share in a written update to be circulated at this time.

Update – action is complete.  Kay was unable to attend the last meeting, and it was communicated after the meeting there was nothing substantive to provide in writing. 

Action 4 – Pauline agreed to connect in with Bryan who expressed an interest in receiving and an update on how non-instructed advocacy (NIA) is moving forward.

Update – action is complete. Pauline and Bryan confirmed this discussion had happened.

Action 5 - Scottish Government were asked to share the Minister’s video recording for the ERG following the conclusion of the evaluation report.  SG agreed to check this was appropriate to share.

Update – action is complete. The recording was shared via WeTransfer for internal organisational use. Public social media and news release was also shared with members and wider stakeholders.

Action 6 – On the children’s hearings advocacy evaluation report themes for improvement, members of the NPN agreed these matters should be discussed further within the NPN including standardised annual report and independent advocacy role and training.

Update – chair invited Kay to cover this in her update, next agenda item.

Action 7 – Scottish Government to work on the communications strategy for disseminating and making best use of the evidence from the evaluation report.

Update – as mentioned already, there was communications activity supported around the publication for the evaluation report. The findings will be taken onboard in the Hearings Redesign programme of work. Communications activity is an ongoing matter, looking for opportunities to promote the website, highlight the provision to practitioners to raise awareness and encourage good referral practices etc. Discussion on what else has been happening and can be done was to be discussed at agenda item 5.

Members updates

Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration(SCRA) update – written papers accompanied this item. 

•    SCRA Data – 12 November 2024 to 20 February 2025
•    SCRA Advocacy Data – First Year Report
•    SCRA practice note answers to advocacy queries 
•    Working model of advocacy in the Children’s hearings system
•    Children’s Rights, participation engagement and understanding work

The chair invited Melissa to give an update. Melissa started with highlighting the scrapbook for younger children and magazine for children over 12 work initiative.  These will be documents available in hard copy and electronic formats which will be issued with Children’s Hearings notification letters. The documents are intended to help children and young people have some control over the things they wish to be considered in planning their Hearings. For these to be used well, and particularly with their scrapbook, the younger children will need help from the adults around them to understand and complete them. Advocacy workers may be the key adult to assist them with completing the scrapbook for some children. Gordon Main will attend the next NPN meeting on 13 March to discuss how this can be supported in more detail.

Melissa explained the reports provide data for both the first full year and the period since November. Going forward it was noted the data can be provided by the data team to align with the quarterly/annual reporting timeframe followed by the advocacy organisations for Scottish Government financial year. 

Melissa also highlighted the paper sent out with meeting paper which provides answers from SCRA’s Reporter Practice Note to advocacy queries. The paper covers matters such as: when can an advocacy worker be given information about the Children’s Hearings; what information an advocacy worker may be asked to provide; will the Reporter refer a child to advocacy services; what will happen at a future review hearing?; can the advocacy worker attend a hearing in a child’s absence; and is there guidance for advocacy workers to follow?

Melissa invited direct feedback on the working model infographics, specifically asking if they are useful or not.

Kay asked if the Reporter Practice Note is a published live document that could be viewed. Melissa took a note to check this and would clarify. Kay noted the papers would be added to the NPN agenda for general discussion at the next meeting on 13 March and particular views can be fed back.

There was discussion on the practice note queries. The main points have been summarised:
•    Possible loophole to be closed around what happens at a review hearing, and how is it checked if advocacy support is still with the child in a timely and appropriate way.
•    GDPR issues can be tricky but may need check points on who needs to be and should be notified of a Hearing. It may need to be wider than a check point with social work.
•    The approach taken at future review Hearings is the same for safeguarders and legal representatives as is noted for advocacy workers.

Actions

•    Scottish Government to provide SCRA with the grant reporting cycle timeframes for running future data reports for advocacy in Children’s Hearings.
•    SCRA agreed to check the circulation details of the Reporter Practice Notes used for the advocacy query answers and would update on whether the notes can be shared with ERG members.
•    All members to consider SCRA paper on the working model of advocacy in the Children’s Hearings System and offer feedback directly to Melissa on how useful this is, and any suggestions for development. 
•    SCRA will arrange to have an initial conversation with SWS about process of checks at future review Hearings and consider whether this needs to be addressed more widely.

Children’s Hearings Scotland (CHS) update

Chair invited Mel to give an update. Mel mentioned the postcards made available in Children’s hearings centres pilot initiative to encourage feedback had shown limited success. There are no plans to extend the postcard further as this project has evolved to include a QR code in all letters, aiming for roll out by summer. 

This will happen alongside work to more routinely offer ‘greetings/introductions’ from the chair with a child/young person on their own before entering the Hearings room with others. This takes onboard views children and young people have shared, with the purpose of offering this option to help the child/young person feel safer and the Hearing more welcoming. 

There is a lot of outreach work going on across the country with education, legal representatives and Social Workers around ethos of children’s hearings and what professionals need to know to provide effective and timely support. There is work to do on joining all the dots.

Mel asked for support to develop CHS’ outreach work. They are looking for more intuitive ways to get feedback from children and young people and want to hear what advocacy workers think about the hearings from their perspectives. Feedback does not need to be attributed. Feedback on when Hearings go well, what made the difference and equally, if they do not go well, why and what contributed to this. Mel invited ideas direct to his email.

Rebecca asked for clarity on how the child/young person’s ‘greeting/introduction’ with the Chair of the Hearings would work in practice – how would it be offered and where. 

Mel explained it would need to be managed in the time before a Hearings on an individual basis, it would not be imposed, and it may not be possible to offer for every Hearing. Mel agreed to take away feedback from members to the Project Team noting this needs to be managed in the right way and clarity will be needed on the practicalities e.g. who might mention this to the child, how are expectations managed if it is not something that can always happen etc. Advocacy workers and other professionals supporting the children and young people would welcome more clarity on the practicalities. Melissa added this is not a meeting with the Chair of the Hearing in advance, it is an introduction. There is pilot work to find out the best way for this to happen, what will be the best process. Where this is happening, do not change anything as it should happen organically. More information will follow.

There was further discussion on this, main points summarised:
•    In some areas this already happens, is it intended this will happen if wanted or will it be more organic. There needs to be a reason to give children/young people if it is discussed as an option but will not be possible.
•    If advocacy organisations / and their workers has a role to play – could this be discussed directly with NPN to avoid local creep and help to support a national approach - explained, understood and disseminated clearly for all.
•    Advocacy workers on the ground have lots to be thinking about and to manage carefully and sensitively with the child/young person – a plea was please do not over complicate the process of making an offer of a greeting that may or may not happen.

Advocacy organisations intimated that advocacy providers are keen to receive constructive feedback from colleagues across the Children’s hearings system too and this is not seen as a one-way process. It was acknowledged it was positive to note CHS are keen to hear feedback not only from children and young people but from advocacy workers too. It was also noted that Barnardo’s had introduced a gather/provide feedback process across some localities which had to be suspended due to concerns from some Hearings members. Selwyn and Mel agreed to pick up this issue separately and provide a solution.

Actions

•    All members invited to get in touch with Mel to discuss any ideas on feedback mechanisms or to provide feedback on how Hearings are being experienced in the views of the children they are supporting or from their own professional role and perspective. The contact information for e-mail feedback to feedback@chs.gov.scot or via the feedback section on the website Give us feedback as a professional 
•    In relation to the child/young person’s greeting/introduction with the Chair of the Hearing, Mel will share feedback made by members to the CHS / SCRA Project Team about messaging to prevent confusion or uncertainty that could play out to the child. Clarity on the role advocacy workers can take in support may follow.

Children’s Hearings Advocacy National Provider Network (NPN) Update

The chair invited Kay as chair of the NPN to provide an update. Kay noted items raised under SCRA and CHS items would be added to the agenda for the next meeting of the NPN on 13 March.

Kay mentioned there had been meetings, including with Children 1st about non-instructed advocacy and about resources to help others understand how this is practiced and its distinctions. The NPN have been working together to ensure consistency and to support regional activity to disseminate training and awareness raising.

A shared space hosted by SG has been started to support collaboration and where advocacy organisations can make note of barriers, issues, successes to help identify solutions. Over time this will build an understanding of where there may be inconsistencies, which could be localised or more widespread. This will help the NPN to find solutions together and identify any matters that may need escalated to others e.g. SG, SCRA, CHS etc. This collaborative document and shared space are in a very early stage. There was some discussion about the document, it will need time to see what comes of it. It was questioned if it may lend a use to other organisations such as Clan childlaw to identify the topics for the training sessions for advocacy workers, or nuggets of information to offer in feedback about the experience of Hearings that could help CHS and SCRA for both practical barriers but also for the more systemic ones.

A subgroup of NPN will be looking at reporting alignments. This will identify a few key factors to provide together a clear national overview and align with SCRA data reporting. 

Following an invitation for an advocacy voice, the NPN will identify a representative to be part of the Pre-Hearing Redesign workstream group. 

It is intended to have an in-person connection session of the NPN at some point in the year which will cover training elements and wellbeing. Children 1st expressed an interest in being involved.

The chair mentioned written comments had been received from Social Work Scotland considering the update papers from SCRA and note of the last meeting with reference to non-instructed advocacy (NIA) from a Social Work perspective. Some questions were raised in comments about the position on independent advocacy in supporting children aged 0-17 and particularly in relation to non-instructed advocacy and how this is being received and supported in Children’s Hearings. It was requested that NIA needs to be discussed with other professionals.

A summary of the discussion on the matter of NIA included:
•    There remain different mindsets, with some resistance and barriers about the legitimacy of the model needing to be worked through to help with understanding and recognition of the value of what this practice brings.
•    NPN want to support awareness raising and training for others including Social Workers, Children’s Reporters, Children’s Hearing’s Members, Safeguarders etc. 
•    Training and awareness raising will be very important for Children's Reporters around NIA. SCRA would be happy to be involved in the development of that.
•    There was a view that perhaps there should be a system-wide discussion to build understanding, recognition and regard rather than just saying it is in the Practice documents. There was a further view that for laypersons, should NIA continue to be characterised as 'advocacy' in the same way that the wider Children’s Hearings scheme is understood. Do we have language and meaning issues to work through with partners?
•    There was some agreement the naming is not always helpful and work on language and meaning could help.
•    There are some examples quoted of where the NIA statements have been well received with understanding of the work that goes into the practice and what comes out of that support.
•    Another view, agreed with by other ERG members, was that as has been discussed many times there is a need to focus on legislative change to truly embed NIA.
•    It was suggested it would be useful to approach this from the bottom up. Show the why, this is about children and young people who otherwise cannot instruct an advocacy worker. What is distinctive in this? Section 122 of the Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011 was intended to amplify voice, complementary to the other supports and safeguards available. How does NIA work alongside the tapestry of rights and voice. There is a need to make these rights, and voice supports to be understood as complementary and coherent, not seen as conflicting.
•    There needs to be an open conversation starting from each understanding our roles within the children's hearing system that support children in differing ways. It would be good to include the range of partners involved.
•    Safeguarders role is independent and focused on best interests of the child defined by UNCRC, voice is not the only feature.  
•    Advocacy workers role is independent to safeguard the rights of the child; they have no powers to take on any other role.
•    NIA has been practiced for a long time and is widely accepted in work with adults with incapacity, why would this not be the same for children? 
•    All partners roles need to be valued fairly. It was expressed there was a sense of unwillingness from statutory services and feeling advocacy workers cannot be trusted to do their job. It was explained advocacy workers do not have their own agenda, their sole role is to present the views of the child/young person.
•    Humility and compassion in bringing people alongside each other on Hearings Redesign, as is being inspired by Sheriff Mackie and the Promise, need to be continued in the contributions and journey around realising Lifelong Advocacy inspirations.

In summing up, disappointment was expressed in the journey and efforts put in over the last few years and it was accepted there is more work to be done to avoid any drift backwards. There was an agreement this area demands a freestanding conversation, about the coherent set of offers and how they interlock and differ within Children’s Hearings context and specifically for this group of children who may otherwise not be being heard. 

Actions

•    Scottish Government to reflect on the discussion of NIA and will identify and support collaborative action to agree a plan to move the conversation forward constructively.
•    Tom accepted an invite to join the NPN on 13 March to speak more about Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024 implementation, and Hearings Redesign

Scottish Government Update 

A written paper accompanied this item.

Louise mentioned the items about current grant funding and a reminder to those organisations to submit their final quarter claims by 14 March. Parliament approved the Scottish Budget Bill on 25 February and the children’s hearings advocacy provision has a budget of £2.1 million for 2025-26. She also confirmed the project had been selected to be part of the Fairer Funding Pilot and had given written indication of the intent to grant fund organisations for the next two financial years (1 April 2025 to 31 March 2027) with no less than the current year’s funding in each year. There is exploration work ongoing with stakeholders on a light touch evaluation process, which will focus on the specific effect of the Pilot on outcomes, more detail will follow. SG are working on drafting and issuing grant letters before the end of March 2025. Finally, on employer national insurance contributions increase, dialogue is ongoing the between Scottish and UK Government to press the UK Government to provide the funding needed to support public sector services impacted.

Pam spoke about CDP and training to re-establish the ERG sub-group looking at the Skills and Knowledge Framework and progress the development of an advocacy worker’s qualification. The intention is to convene a sub-group meeting early April. Pam noted the previous membership and invited ERG members to confirm their wish to attend or who their organisational representative would be if those personnel have changed since the last group meeting. 
Louise highlighted the updates provided on communication and engagement, including the initiative of the collaborative workspace for NPN to use and develop, ongoing local activities, and the usage of the website analytics remaining good. Areas of top search included request for siblings, how to become an advocacy worker, victim information and deprivation of liberty.

Pam also drew attention to recent activity around the fifth anniversary of The Promise, including engagement with stakeholders to develop our understanding of what a lifelong advocacy service would look like, including the potential demand and costs of service. As part of the next stages of this work, consideration will be given to the benefit of a legislative approach where appropriate, as we need to ensure that the voice of those with care experience who require access to advocacy are given the opportunity to shape the best way forward.

Other areas of work highlighted in updated included: ongoing engagement work to continue to develop policy to underpin the future draft regulations for Cross Border Placements into Residential Care in Scotland; careful planning and preparations are underway to commence wider provisions in the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024 this Parliamentary term where possible; consultation analysis of the Children’s Hearings Redesign and meetings of the Board and planning group have met to support progressions; UNCRC and children and young people advocacy network with focus on strengthening children and young people’s (CYP) ‘pathways to remedy’.

Actions

•    ERG members to let Scottish Government team know if they want to be invited to the CDP and Training sub-group meeting before end of March.
•    Scottish Government would welcome receiving details of any successful communications and engagement strategies we can share and work on with the group.
•    ERG members please continue to promote the website.
•    NPN advocacy organisations should check contact details on www.hearings-advocacy.com are correct and notify Scottish Government of any changes required.

Training and CPD

A written update accompanied this item with information from Clan childlaw included in the Scottish Government paper. 

Clan childlaw was invited to give an update on the progress of the annual training and legal advice service. Sarah spoke about the approach and delivery of training and use of the legal service in the last year. The legal advice service received 93 calls in the year. Refresher training half day sessions were held in November and February and 53 advocacy workers completed the refresher training. The content topics were selected through reach out to advocacy workers to gather insight on key themes. The training covered legislating supporting UNCRC, Children (Care and Justice)(Scotland) Act 2024, Children’s hearings review hearings and grounds of referrals, care leavers rights and cross border deprivation of liberty orders. Fifteen new advocacy workers were signed up to the online self-study induction materials, and it was noted six of whom had not completed the self-learning before the online group sessions which used case studies to apply the self-study content into practical learning.

Rebecca spoke about moving forward. Using feedback from those who attended the sessions there is some thinking that more frequent and shorter topical sessions may work better. An in-person session from new advocacy workers worked well before and the networking as part of this was valued. There has been lots of legislative change and the self-study content will be updated to reflect this too. The advice service line is available 5 days and there is capacity to increase contact to speak to a lawyer to benefit children, young people and others.

Micheál, as the project coordinator, has been the key point of contact from advocacy workers and managers etc. to connect in with to support the planning for the training and to encourage sign-up and record completion of training. Details of the forthcoming training are being worked on and will be shared in due course.

Kay asked if Clan childlaw would attend a meeting of the NPN in April to speak with the group about the process and operations in more detail.

The chair reminded everyone advocacy workers need to complete the training delivered by Clan childlaw as it is mandatory. The induction e-learning must be completed for all new starts and refresher sessions for all advocacy workers under the scheme. Advocacy organisations were asked to please let Clan childlaw know staff details so they can set them up with an account to access the eLearning modules as part of their inductions and let all necessary staff know about how to sign-up for the refresher training. 

Actions

•    Kay will invite Clan Childlaw to a meeting of the NPN to speak in more detail about the training session plans to ensure all staff sign-up/complete this and about encouraging use of the legal advice service.
•    Advocacy organisations managers were asked to ensure all new advocacy workers sign-up for and complete the online self-study induction training prior to the practical session/s in this next year.
•    Advocacy organisations managers were asked to ensure all their advocacy workers and relevant managers complete the refresher training sessions in this next year. Clan childlaw will share details about the dates and venues in due course.

Children’s hearings advocacy external evaluation report(s)

The chair explained Scottish Government are keen to take actions on the areas for improvement identified in the external evaluation report for children’s hearings advocacy. The Chair provided a recap on the themes identified:
•    Monitoring 
•    uptake, demand and supply 
•    independent advocacy role and training 
•    information sharing 
•    equality and inclusion 
•    expanding and connecting support 

The chair summarised a variety of communications activity that has taken place.  Confirmed the intention already mentioned to convene a meeting of the CDP and training subgroup.

The chair invited ERG members to offer any views, thoughts, activities they have had in relation to any of these themes.

Some matters around referral recording and reporting may not be fully resolved.  Locally commissioned services will have certain service level agreements, and these will be different across areas.

It was reflected upon that a lot of the longer-term solutions are being worked on in other forums for legislation, guidance or other necessary solutions to be brought forward such as the Hearings Redesign and the Promise programme work plans.

Any other matters and date of next meeting 

One matter around handling provisions for children in out of area placements was raised and a further discussion requested about practicalities and consistency across all local authority areas and the service providers.

Scottish Government invited any comments to be shared with the team on the structure and agenda items for future meetings.

The Chair thanked everyone for their attendance and participation, noted the date of the next meeting is 26 June 2025 at 10:30-12:30 and closed the meeting.